I’d be interested in seeing a third party evaluation of the security of this.

I too would be interested in a obviously professional and in-depth 3rd party review/audit of all of the code, system, and people behind it.

I can likely trust it for everyday website logins, but before any proud geek uses it to store credit card info, we want independent verification… multiple, reliable sources if possible.

Great work you are putting out there. Seriously. I had the same exact idea in my head for the past 1.5 years, but never acted on attempting anything. If you win the trust of people, it will be a big success, not small. Best of luck.

Any third party review is certainly welcome, but there are some problems:

• we cannot afford the relevant amount of money that a security professional will ask; and since we frequently release new versions …

• conflict of interests: will your trust level increase if we pay a 3rd party to analyze Clipperz security?

We opted since the beginning of this venture for complete transparency and community reviews. This is why we provide instructions about how to download our source code.

This is also why we released the core crypto functions under a BSD AGPL license. See our Clipperz Javascript Crypto Library.

What do you think of our approach? Any suggestion?

Thanks, Marco

I think that you are presenting the concern near the best that you can with your resources (although, you may want to spell out your resources, see bullet below). Your ideas are huge leaps in the right direction, but there is always more that you can do.

Here are some thoughts and ideas to provide cheap security peace of mind to potential users:

First, by professional, I did not necessarily mean paid. Eventually, there are going to be open source advocate organizations, security focus groups, conferences, etc, that will see these new online password management projects. I consider some groups, and people like the above to be ‘professional’. Many non-profit groups, conferences, and security web sites, do handle a budget, donations, etc. This is very much professional, and also their public credibility go a long way.

• Angle communications of awareness and invitation to these open-minded security groups, businesses, conferences, individuals, and open-source communities . Dare them to break your code, run a contest! Every geek likes a dare, even if they do not win much.
• Collaborating with google code was ingenious for trust. If there are other opportunities with Google or similar companies, do it. Apple is another up and comer that a lot of security minded people are moving to. Angle the Mac crowd possibly.
• I do not think you have done the best job of spelling out what your business case/implications are for this project. How will you make money, or not, etc? To become completely transparent, you need to make an entire page and comment/forum area about what your business plans for the future are, it goes a lot towards trust. I have not seen many companies display their in-depth business plan to the public, yet I think that it would make sense here.
• Explain and make simpler, a method of comparing or equivalencing the provided source code with the code being constantly served from your site. Yes, you provide the checksums, but that is of the compressed code. How do we know that the compressed code equals the provided source? There should be a solid, proof positive system that users can verify automatically, easily and independently, at any time. Maybe checking check sums can become more integrated in some way? A user wants to KNOW that the code coming up on the public library computer he is on is for sure the same, proven source code. The user may not have time for, understanding of, or ability to run md5 or sha1 commands.
• You could register yourself or become accredited by 3rd party organizations without too much $$. Organizations such as the US Better Business Bureau, http://www.bbbonline.org , TRUSTe http://www.truste.org/ , Common Criteria http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme
• Fully comply/follow standards such as this NIST Information Security document. It explains how governments get certified and accredited, how security can best be documented, etc. http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-37/SP800-37-final.pdf (appologies if my specific references are too USA-based)</http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-37/sp800-37-final.pdf></http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme></http://www.truste.org/></http://www.bbbonline.org>

Is the same password used when logging in at clipperz.com as is used when encrypting the data locally?

The short answer is “no”.

The long answer is too long to be tell on a comment, but I will try to point out the main elements:

• we use the SRP protocol to authenticate Clipperz’s users; this protocol works without ever sending the password to the server, neither for registration nor for authentication;
• we don’t even use your straight passphrase for the SRP protocol, just as a second level of protection [1]

If you are interested in more details, please join our discussion group

[1] the full formula is srp_password = sha-d256(passphrase + username); you can find it on the source file src/js/Clipperz/PM/Connection.js, at line 503

simple question - simple YES / NO appreciated! I imagine (not an expert) the answer is YES but only through Brute Force?

Dear Sam, what about posting your question to forums and discussion groups focused on security and cryptography?

Clipperz, as any security system, is not just a collection of crypto algorithms, but it consists of many other components including the users!

Therefore it would be very interesting to have more people with different skills answer your question. However I doubt it could a yes/no answer.

Thanks, Marco

Thanks for the response Marco although you didnt really answer my question ;) - frankly I am an “average user” thus have no interest in exploring the in-depth nature of cryptography on various forums - most of your users will be like me! I am however interested in using Clipperz and would expect you to have a view on my question rather than tell me to go elswhere since YOU are asking for my passwords.

Asking around, I believe this like really anything can be cracked - probably at present through brute force and wouldnt be worth the effort if someone did manage to get a hold of your severs. This to me seems an acceptable level of risk and is not something you should be afraid of explaining to your users!

All the best Sam

Dear Sam, we are not asking our users to trust us, but to check for themselves or ask the community of security experts.

This is why I did not answer your question, after all every seller praises his wares, so my answer wouldn’t be of any help …

We believe Clipperz is a strong cryptographic system that can greatly enhance the security of its users (otherwise I would never ask your passwords and confidential data).

That said, even if you are an average user you should put more values in a third party evaluation of Clipperz than in any declaration from its developers.

Regards, Marco

I love the Clipperz service.

My questions has to deal with continued availability. If I spend a bunch of time to input data into the system, how can I ensure that the service will be there a year from now? Obviously, I can download a local copy regularly to protect myself.

Here’s the deal. Clipperz doesn’t have contact information for it’s users. This is a real selling point of the service.

As a result, there is no way for Clipperz to send out an email warning users that the service is going away and to instruct people to pull down their data.

One idea might be to allow users to subscribe to some sort of company news list, which is separate and apart from the user list. This might be confusing to people.

We are perfectly aware of this communication issue; this is why we have set up a forum even before starting advertising the service.

We encourage all our users to subscribe to the forum, as it is a nice way to keep up to date with the evolution (and sometimes also shortcomings) of our service.

It is highly patrolled (even if we are only a two guys shop, we really care about our users), and you can see by yourself the rate and responsiveness of our replies.

But we have also other options to keep our users updated.

We are now investigating how to notify our users of relevant updates through the application itself, but we are very careful about it as we really don’t want to weaken the security of the application doing it.

Hope this addresses some of your concerns.

I’m just getting into using Clipperz and find the anonymity and ‘zero-knowledge’ aspect really appealing. However, as I am not technically-minded enough to understand all the cryptograhic aspects of the site can you reassure me on something? When I use Clipperz on my PC at home I understand that all the confidential information is encrypted by my browser. That’s fine. However, how secure is this when I using, say, a PC in an Internet Cafe or my local Public Library? In such situations it is not ‘my’ browser…

Hoping you can put my mind at rest! btw- I prefer your site to PassPack!

Dear Paul,
thanks for your kind words!

When accessing Clipperz from a public PC, I would recommend the following measures:

1. Avoid using any installed browser by bringing with you Portable Firefox, launch it from your USB drive or iPod.

2. Sign in to Clipperz using a one-time passphrase and not your regular passphrase. (this long-awaited feature will be released next week!)

And, if the untrusted PC does not have an Internet connection, move to the USB drive also your offline copy.

best regards,
 Marco

i understand that the reason for not opening code is the great opportunity to make some money and obviously need for some payoff for all the resources and work which you put into the development…

is there any other reason which you found for not publishing all the code under gpl?

Sorry, but I can not understand who could benefit from our code being released under GPL licence.

Could you share some interesting cases that are not achievable with the current license, but would be possible using a GPL licence?

by manipulating the DOM, it was easy to override the locking (by simply removing the elements off the page). The “Nuke anything” extension for firefox makes this a 5 second job.

The current implementation of the locking feature is very “thin”, security wise.

This is one of the reasons we have not implemented yet an auto-lock in the main interface (the compact version, if used in a sidebar, is somewhat more secure, as the browsers plug-ins can not access its content as easily; nothing rock solid, but a little more secure).

We are aware of this weakness, and we are planning for a much more solid solution in a future release of the application.

PS: thanks for the pointer to the interesting Firefox plug-in.

When I download index.html to my computer, I must enter passphrase in order to access the data. Therefore, this passphrase must be checked against something. And this “something” must be included in the index.html, which is downloaded from the server.

How does server know what to check, if it never receives the passphrase?

Sorry if this is obvious, but I’m really stuck :)

Thanks, Aleksey.

Aleksey,

first let me fix a wrong assumption you wrote in your comment:

this “something” must be included in the index.html

This is not correct. The index.html file is a static file, and it is the same for everybody. No personal information is stored in it; this is not the case for the offline version, but I don’t think this is relevant for the moment.

Your credentials are compared with some data stored on the server, but thanks to the SRP protocol we can achieve this without sending the passphrase itself to the server. Only derivate values are transmitted; if you like some algebra, look here.

A bit of questions: - Does Clipperz allow me to delete my account later? - If yes, will Clipperz delete every information in my account?

Sorry if these are already covered, I am just a bit concerned to even try Clipperz if I don’t have the answers to these questions. Thanks.

You need to go to “account” -> “delete your account”.

We ask for your username and passphrase (just to be sure that is not somebody else trying to delete your account left open on your computer) and we will delete everything from our online DB, access history included.

The only data left will be the one on the backups.

I see. Thanks for the answer. :)

Am I right, that if you want to, you could change your JS and your checksums and you get all the passwords from every user enters its registration data?

The short answer is YES; we could change the JS in order to collect all our users’ username and passphrase.

What we are hoping is going to happen, is that as soon as the checksum changes, someone will compare the current version of the application with the previous one (we have all the code of all the different versions of the application readily downloadable) and check that the changed code will do no harm to the security of the whole system.

Keeping all the version always available also allow anybody to check if in the past we have tried to do scary things.

We perfectly understand that not everybody will be able to perform an accurate assessment of the code; but it will be enough for just a single person to find a problem, for the whole project to be immediately dismantled.

I don’t know if this is a sound enough answer to your question, but we have no other definitive answer right now.

I’m currently a Passpack user and I guess I chose Passpack over Clipperz partly because of the double data security - one password to get the data and another to unpack it. I’m starting to wonder if this really improves security (much) … Could you please comment on this?

Off-topic: I assume Clipperz isn’t supporting HTTP Basic Auth yet - at least that is the biggest drawback for me when using Passpack. Do you have any plans to do so or any ideas on how to do it?

@ Hans Frederik

I cannot comment on Passpack’s implementation because the source code is not available, at least not in an intelligible form. The authentication protocol where the first password is used is not known to me. Similarly I have no info about the key derivation algorithm that processes the second password.

I can only say that remembering one long and strong password is easier then remembering two long and strong passwords. :-)

HTTP Basic Auth is definitely supported by Clipperz! You can easily have a 1-click login to any web site that uses HTTP Auth. There is a dedicated tool to quickly create such a link.

Marco

Too complicated.

It’s a excellent program. Congratulations.

I heard all about clipperz and tried it a few days ago and had problems hope everything was taken care of.Will try again in the future.

I believe Clipperz is a strong cryptographic system that can greatly enhance the security of its users.

To Further enhance password security I like your password generator. Problem is that your password generator doesn’t seem to generate a certain number of characters and Numbers are missing…

I would love it if you downloaded the code for cryptnos.

It’s open source :

http://www.cryptnos.com/online/

It’s a great Idea basically you come up with a unique passphrase and a site and encryption parameters and hit generate and it generates your passwords.

Can you imagine even further zero knowledge you save the passphrase “Master Password” in the password card and all the user has to do is remember the parameters to generate their actual password.

For the paranoid. Or like I said above a better random password generator.

It’s free and I just saw it today and figured you guys could easily implement it.

http://www.cryptnos.com

@Josh

Cryptnos is quite similar to the original PwdHash from Stanford. It’s a smart idea, but it ‘s something different from a password generator.

Why are you saying that Clipperz password generator “doesn’t seem to generate a certain number of characters …”? Can you elaborate more on this? If you have evidence of a misbehavior we would like to fix it! Thans.

On the provided password generator, try Choosing Low, Upper, Special and Numbers.

Tell me all the time the amount of everything.

The amount of #’s is somehow always shorter.. sometimes even non-existent.

I am not here to criticize your password generator.

I just like choice.

I may also be a little bit on the paranoid side.

And while I understand that Cryptnos is not a Random password generator you can store your cryptnos (non-encrypted) passphrase in the password field inside your clipperz card.

All the user has to remember are the encryption parameters and know what site they want a password for. They then take the (non-encrypted) password inside their clipperz card and put it in the ‘Passphrase’ field of cryptnos and hit generate to generate their ‘REAL’ password. It uses a freely available source and it’s even another layer of security inside of clipperz. It also makes it even more “zero knowledge”.

Thanks Josh. We will certainly verify the wrong behavior you are reporting and get back to you.

Being slightly paranoid is a very much appreciated virtue here! :-)

Browser base encryption techniques are much better & safe, as here in the case of Clipperz. I’ve not yet used this tool but after going through this article I must try it.

Now data security is a major issue because many online crime occurring through data theft. I’ve already used password management & quite happy with its service still I want to try new ones. I hope Clipperz will be a nice & useful tool for me.